18 replies to this topic

[CaptBogdanowich]

For a very long time, ever since a build number which I don't remember, quite half of the available ships have become unplayable:

There was this famous rule that Freighters are not allowed to mount Ultra Hulls. Also, big shields were forbidden from mounting on a very large number of ships.
Why this rule, I was never able to understand, because freighters are generally sturdy ships in sci-fi culture. Resiliant and pretty well armed, but sluggish and hard to maneuver.
At least when it comes about real freighters.

However there are a lot of ships, such as Gunboats, Destroyers, Cruisers and Battleships, that were not labeled as such and therefore treated as freighters (except for some really big battleships), and this even if valid shielding was introduced (like Gunboat Shield for instance). Therefore these ships were practically unflyable, with subdimensioned shielding and paper-thin armor.

As a result, just a few ships were actually being flown by players. This was not the result of mod inconsistencies, rather a result of server rules, which in this case played the role of a server policy.

Will this be solved in the new mod?

[Pokey]

The one major problem playing any mod in Freelancer (and I guess this goes for any game really) is that humans will be human. That is to say, we will ALWAYS use the best, fastest, quickest, biggest (can you see where this is going?).
In other words, why use a ship which has 6 guns and an angular velocity of 1.6, when you can use a ship with 8 guns and an angular velocity of 1.8.

This is why I've always said that the fix for this is incredibly easy, yet no one has ever done it. TT's had a lot of ships, more than most mods, yet only a half a dozen or so were ever flown. Out of, for example, 50 heavy fighters, only 2 or 3 had the approximate specs I described above. So, being human, we only ever flew those ships. Now this pissed a lot of people off because this mod was "supposed" to be played by hard core RP players, yet they couldn't fly their RP designated ships because they were crap! So, IMO, the best way to fix this is to take the specs of......say....the FA27c, copy them, and paste them into the specs of those other 50 ships. That way, everyone will have their choice for RP sake. In other words, the only difference between all of these ships will be how they look. The same can be done for other classes of ships too.

Anyway, there ys go!

Cheers, Pokey

[S31-Zero-Order]

... take the specs of......say....the FA27c, copy them, and paste them into the specs of those other 50 ships.

This, my friend, is heresy. It cannot simply have it's glory prostituted between starships!



On a more serious note, I'd have to agree with most of what Pokey said, however, I disagree with the proposed solution. I've been to NSU before, stayed there for a few months and then jumped off for that very reason. All the ships were the exact same. They all handled the same and all acted the exact same. Needless to say, it became boring very quickly. There was no flavor to the mix at all.

What is really needed are tiered variations of spacecraft. For example, I fly a pirate harrier. While it fits my RP role, I use it primarily as a snub fighter. It's armor might as well be non-existant, it's guns are pea-shooters to other fighters simply by number (only 4 mounts) and it's shielding is terrible. However, it's as I've always asked: who needs armor when you never get hit too badly?

You need a variety of craft for a variety of playing styles. So again as an example, if I'm going for an interception or full-on assault, I'll use my FA-27c. It's my favorite ship, carries a lot of armor and punishing offensive capabilities while not being nearly as fast as a light fighter. It acts and behaves like a heavy fighter should.

One of the best places (if it's still around) to see this would have been the IONCROSS server. It had a variety of ships that fulfilled a variety of roles that revolved specifically around each person's style of play. I myself generally prefer speed over firepower. I served in many escort roles and destroyed or distracted fighters while the heavies and medium fighters in the squad would square off against the larger targets. The heavies would lumber along and absorb generous amounts of fire, while the mediums would cover their backs with supporting actions.

It was much different from what we have currently and I strongly believe that Teks would really prosper from a more balancing redesign, rather than go for a blander equalize-everything-around-one-set-of-stats route.

[Pokey]

I whole heartedly agree with you Zero, about having different balances for different classes of ships. What I was primarily getting at, was if someone playing a Star Trek RP, they may use the defiant, and at the same time someone playing a pie rat RP might use the Pie Rat Marauder (or something similar). 2 very different heavy fighters that look completely different, yet have the same stats, so it is up to the pilots level of skill, and not the fact that one has less armour or more guns. Of course, light fighters would have their own specs, but none with any.......edge, if you know what I mean. Same goes for Gunboats, Cruisers and Battleships. I'm basically trying to figure out how everyone can fly evry ship in the game, and not be disadvantaged. Also so that not only one or two ships are flown by everyone.

For example....I LOVE the look of the Ravenclaw. I personally think it's the coolest looking ship in the game. Yet, the ship sux! But if it had the same specs as the FA, then I would fly nothing else (well, not true, I would try other ships of course).

Cheers.

[Jacobite]

most if not all the ships in TT inc FL ones are being removed, if not imediatly then over time. the new ones replaceing them will be balanced certainly a lot better than what we have now, in all classes of fighters for instance it will be up to you whether you set up as offensive or defensive, whichever setup you choose will effect the charactoristics of the ship, if all goes well (and it is so far) i`m not going to much into detail here because you`ll have to find out for yourselves but basically if two of you have the same ship but fitted out differently you will notice the difference in handling ! also be aware that the more offensive your ship is setup the less cargo space you`ll have !

with regards the freighters, you will not be able to arm them enough to be classed as offensive but you should be able to make them defensive enough to get out of a bad situation or hold off until help arrives, in the case of freighters we`re looking for this kind of balance... against a light fighter you shouldnt have to much to worry about, a medium may depend on both your`s and the other pilots ability, a heavy fighter and you may be in trouble unless you can make it to dock or rendezvous with help ! of course your best alternative with freighters is to have escorts ! on another note some of the commodities you will be carrying will be of more importance than just cash value and also may be difficult to get so you`ll want to look after them until your safe, your opposition may need what your carrying or simply may not want you to get it where it needs to go ! (but we`ll touch more on that in RP)

In essence the main difference in like for like ships in all classes will be your setup and...... YOU !

[Pokey]

Sounds interesting.......we will see!

Cheers

[S31-Zero-Order]

I just don't want to see it turn into another mechwarrior version that makes heavies the absolute best hands-down and the only thing anyone uses. LFs should still have a purpose and should be able to destroy heavies. Albeit, it'd take a lot longer than a heavy vs. another heavy, but LFs should have an obvious speed advantage over them, while having lesser weapon capabilities and armor.

[Jacobite]

while i agree that in an ideal world a good pilot with a light fighter should be able to wear down a less experianced pilot in a medium fighter at some point we have to draw the line at more representative than actual, and since on balance most (if not all) players tend to trade in their light fighter (starter ship) at the earliest opertunity whether it be to go trading or fighting it does`nt make much sense for us to spend to much time in that area, as said above on a like for like basis the ships will be on a par and yes those of you who are good pilots should be able to take on a class higher if the opposeing player is less experianced. I also dont really see many players stickin with the light fighters in favour of agility, especially if they wish to progress in whichever field of play they choose to do. while we will do our best as far as the tech specs of the mod are concerned at some point Imagination & RP will have to take over,.

to those of you who do intend to take a light fighter out into the darkness.. em.... Good Luck



regards, Jaco.

[S31-Zero-Order]

We're going to wind up with people using a handful of ships, just like we did in other versions and all with the exact same gear. Play the newer mechwarrior games. Everyone with the exact same heavy mech, jumpjets, and exact same loadouts. That got old very quickly.

You never played against me much did you, Jaco? I stomped groups of 3 to 4 people alone in my Pirate Harrier. 4 guns, 25 bots/bats, 9k armor. I asked them to come back for more. Sure, the fights lasted about 1 - 2 hours, but I would stay in space the entire time and rack up 8-10 kills or worse.

[Pokey]

Remember when the Scarlet became very popular?? HUGE hull, 9 guns instead of 8, 3 thrusters, etc etc. I killed every single one of those in my crappy little pericles explorer! Why? Because I could get behind them with its incredible straffe and just widdle away at their armour. So it took 15 mins or so, it was still fun. But, when everyone went back to FA's, I had to put that ship away for good. Because those "heavy" fighters turned better than my light fighter. Hehe, not sure what my point is, I lost my train of thought. But if every class of ship had 50 or more ships to choose from, and if each class of ship had a slight edge of some sort, there would be much more variety in the game. I guess, that's what my point is.

Cheers

[S31-Zero-Order]

This is true, but doesn't that mean we're looking at more of a vanilla freelancer-type model of play though? In the end, there were only 3 ships anyone ever flew: Eagle, Sabre, and Titan. They all had the best weaps capabilities and nobody stuck with anything else once they got the money for them.

And Pokey, the pericles was a terrible choice for a dogfight against the FA. The scarlet was a hit-and-run craft, used for strafing maneuvers and roaring at whatever was in front of it at the time. It had a lot of armor and heavy thruster speed, but the turn rate was terrible and people kept using it as a dogfighting ship. The FA had much less armor, wasn't quite as fast thruster-wise, but was much more nimble on the turn. That basically trumped the uber strafe speeds of things like the pericles and snare9.

My harrier could snag them because it was a small LF and had an extremely high turn rate and thrust speed greater than the FA. Yes, it could only fire forwards, really, but it was a great LF to take down heavies. However, God won't be able to help ya if you get hit square on while flying it. A few good hits to the hull and you're worse than screwed. I got one-shotted by battleship primary turrets. I think just 3 or so shots was enough to destroy it. There was no chance at all to recover from it.

My point is that Teks would really be benefitted if we stayed away from the "best ship" mentality and offered a variety of craft with a variety of uses and playing styles. Yes, I understand that equipment is going to matter a great deal, along with cargo space limitations, but the ships people fly will still have base stats to start with before modification. You'll have people who are looking for something nimble and quick (Harrier) or there will be those who look for a mobile armored space tank to trollolol around in (Scarlet). Of course, we have no idea on what has actually been set up as of yet other than what has already been said. This may be something that will only have a resolution after testing.

[Pokey]

Well hell m8! This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. More variety.

Cheers.

[Jacobite]

well double hell.. we all seem to be saying exactly the same thing

[Sn0w]

Hey not everyone stuck to those fighters. I preferred the defiant myself not for any RP reason either. I loved the thick hull (would have been better if I could use the ultra hulls but still good), nice selection of weapons, and a cloak. For me it was an excellent combination. Fast and powerful enough to worry larger, slower ships. Cloak to escape the faster ones and still enough cargo space to make the trip worthwhile.

I'm glad you guys aren't going to make a bunch of clones that would suck and probably completely ruin the feel of the game. Just please make sure I get my defiant back lol

[CaptBogdanowich]

Hey not everyone stuck to those fighters. I preferred the defiant myself not for any RP reason either. I loved the thick hull (would have been better if I could use the ultra hulls but still good), nice selection of weapons, and a cloak. For me it was an excellent combination. Fast and powerful enough to worry larger, slower ships. Cloak to escape the faster ones and still enough cargo space to make the trip worthwhile.

I'm glad you guys aren't going to make a bunch of clones that would suck and probably completely ruin the feel of the game. Just please make sure I get my defiant back lol

I remember the Defiant was unusable. The hull was paper thin (because Ultra Hull not allowed), otherwise would have been a good ship.
The freighter issue affected many, many ships that don't play freighter roles (such as the Enterprises, or the Whitestar for instance)...

Ships were unflyable 90% because of server policies and just 10% because of their stats. Of course, mistakes accumulated in a very short time after ...5.28, I think... Abrupt changes, such as the introduction of Phantom, whose confrontations were financially painful, then the introduction of Eliminator, the "one gun to rule them all", then the new weapons such as the Protector Trader Turret and the others in its class with the same stats that actually lacked the visual effects that were present on weaker weapons but were so advanced that kinda eliminated the pleasure of tweaking and choosing weapons , then finally it all collapsed with the No Ultra Hull On Freighter rule that removed most of the ships as player choices. As a result, the population of the server gradually descended until Tekagis went down to just-a-few-players mod. The demise of the forum and the acclaimed facebook move was the final blow. Perhaps because we are the old generation that made friends and socialized on forums and not on facebook.

[Sn0w]

I remember the Defiant was unusable. The hull was paper thin (because Ultra Hull not allowed), otherwise would have been a good ship.

lol yeah it was thin compared to the uh's but compared to most of the freighters of it's size and maneuverability she was thick and IMHO the cloaking ability mostly made up for the lack of a UH (you still can't hit what you can't see in this game Ask evil_brain I used to drive him nuts with the damn thing

[CaptBogdanowich]

lol yeah it was thin compared to the uh's but compared to most of the freighters of it's size and maneuverability she was thick and IMHO the cloaking ability mostly made up for the lack of a UH (you still can't hit what you can't see in this game Ask evil_brain I used to drive him nuts with the damn thing

The thing is the 'freighter' thingy is a humbug. Freighter or fighter, it's just a flag set in the mod files; this is how it appears in FLSTAT. It doesn't influence directly the ship's behavior, as it can have better maneuverability, angular speed being a different setting. I think it may have an influence on engine reverse, not sure about that....

[Sn0w]

Well I'll agree the term freighter in TT was always a misnomer. Everything from the Rhino to the Interdictor Cruiser fell into that category lol. Quite a wide gap there. Ships like the Defiant fell into the smaller side and filled alot of smaller niche roles for players like myself who had a play style suited to them. Frankly at the end of the day that's the most important part finding a ship who's pros and cons work the best for your play style and RP. The Defiant worked well for me just like the Snare9 or Scarlet worked well for others. Hopefully though when the new mod drops it'll separate ships a little more accurately, IE Caps not pretending to be freighters.

[Hammer]

It's good to have both role play and custom ships in a mod, but as in all things, there should be a balance in the quantity as well as types and abilities of ships. Example of freighters; Heavy, Medium, and light classes. One to two of each type in custom and one to two role play ships in each class as well. Having a good varity is always wanted but a saturation of ships that never get used is a waste of time and confusing. Each class should have distinct advantages, as well as disadvantages.